Today we lick flames and are cured in the smook as we discuss the eating side of smoking. We are visited by Pliny the Elder and abandoned by the whiskey people before Matthew says the least interesting thing ever and faces the consequences.
Molly's Now but Wow!: Keep Calm and Cook on with Julia Turshen: Food + Romance: Jasmine Guillory
Molly 0:00
Hi. I'm Molly.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:05
And I'm Matthew.
Molly 0:05
And this is spilled milk, the show where we cook something delicious eat at all and you can't have any and
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:11
this week we're talking about that story about how my coworker didn't put enough butter in the butter.
Molly 0:17
We haven't done this one yet, except on the last two episodes.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:21
We're talking about smoked foods. And this was requested by host Molly host Molly, why did you want to talk about smoked foods? So
Molly 0:27
at the time that we're recording this right now?
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:31
I have just when I'm recording it too, right now. Wow.
Molly 0:34
I have just returned from teaching for a week at a basically at a dude ranch like a ranch resort. Not super fancy. But yeah, like a working ranch that's owned by the Nature Conservancy actually super cool. They have a chef there on site to cook for the guests who are staying and outdoor kitchen with all these like super sweet like wood burning grills and stuff. And we ate such good food. This was August when we were there. A lot of vegetables, some bison because they have a conservation herd of bison there and they have to call them so that they don't have too many for the land.
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:17
Did the bison just kind of like mill around and walk by sometimes? Oh,
Molly 1:21
so the bison are on, like a 50,000 acre, like open pasture. But
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:29
I know that's a lot of it.
Molly 1:30
It's huge. And there are 2000 Bison there. And believe it or not, like that's really what the land can support. Okay, so anyway, so this place also, you know, does cook and use some of the bison meat when they have to call the herd once a year to keep it down to 2000. Anyway, all this to say we ate a lot of food that was cooked in coals or you know, otherwise sort of rendered smoky. Yeah. Oh my god delicious potatoes that have been cooked in the coals and we're a little smoky beets, of course, various smoked meats, zucchini and other summer squashes that had basically been grilled, but you know, in the presence of a lot of smoke. Anyway, it just it made me think about I tended prior to having this experience to think about smoked foods as being something that you make only in a smoker. Okay. Okay. So it was really cool to see the way that this guy, Chef Ivan, it's a PATA ranch in southern Colorado, the way that he used smoke in ways both, like sort of mild and aggressive without having any sort of like contained drum like
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:43
a smoker. Interesting. Okay, so I'm glad you brought this up. Because like you asked me to research this app this episode, and I mostly you know, research like smoke houses and stuff. Yeah, so not the thing. You're talking. Oh, no,
Molly 2:56
it's fine. It's totally fine. Anyway, it just but no, I
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:59
know what you mean. Like you want? Like a whisper. Whisper of smoke licking the width from the flames licking the food? Yeah, flames always licking things. I
Molly 3:08
don't know. It's like so intimate. Yeah. I intentionally did not give you any more guidance around smoked foods because I want to talk about all kinds of smoke stuff, not just meat or whatever. But also cheese's I know we'll talk a little bit about tea.
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:23
And also because it's time for me to like learn to make my own way in the world.
Molly 3:26
That's true. That's true.
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:28
Yeah, I've been I've been like under under your guidance long enough.
Molly 3:31
Okay. Yeah, that first step is going to be how to smoke your food. Okay. So hold on, actually, Can I Can I go first on memory please. So when I was in college, and I worked like seasonally at Whole Foods in Northern California, one of the two parts of the store where I worked was the specialty section. Sure. You know, like working behind a cheese counter you get to encounter a lot of really like fancy cheeses and expensive cheeses but then you're also responsible for wrapping, you know for like slicing and wrapping like logs of you know, more everyday cheeses like whole milk mozzarella or monster things like that. Right? Right. So one of the things I had to do was slice these like logs of smoked mozzarella we get and that stuff would sell so fast, interesting smell would stay on my hand for I mean I would get home at the end of the day. I mean even hours after having like cut up and wrapped pieces of this
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:38
switch this smoke like on a rack or a basket or something so that it got like a pattern.
Molly 4:42
It did have a bit of a pattern on the outside.
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:46
When I said basket I don't think that's a real thing. I think of like a like a you know smoking rack. People love
Molly 4:51
smoked mozzarella and I cannot handle it. It just the smell it's so overdone. For me.
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:58
I have a smoked mozzarella Memory Lane and also you do. Yeah. When before de Lancey opened, which is a local pizza restaurant. I've heard of it. You may have heard of it. Yeah. I went to Phoenix, Arizona with former spouse of the show Brandon.
Molly 5:14
Oh FSO tsp.
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:16
Yeah, if sots be epsilon, and we went we went to pizzeria Bianco. Yes. And one of the pies there. I did not forget to look up like what this app pie actually was, besides smoked mozzarella, but had smoked mozzarella. And I think that was the first time I'd ever had smoked mozzarella on a pizza. It is entreaties a lot. Like I don't think I want that to be my only pizza of the evening. But like as as like, you know, we ordered four pizzas for the two of us. And these are not small pizzas. That sounds like a research trip. It was a research trip. But like you know, having having like a bite of the smoked mozzarella pizza, like in between bites of other pizzas was very satisfied.
Molly 5:56
Yeah, you know, I'm just fascinated by by people's appreciation for smoked mozzarella. i Wow. It is not a subtle smoke play, right? I mean, I think about you and your knowledge of and love of tea. What about Lapsang suit, Shawn, I chunk it right.
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:13
So this is a very polarizing tea. It's a smoked black tea from China. Yeah. And I remember like I used to, I mostly drink green tea now. So I haven't like ordered Lapsang Souchong in a long time, but I would still enjoy it if I if I got my hands on someone I used to order it from Upton Tea Importers, which is a really nice tea catalog. I think they still send me the paper catalog sometimes, which is very refreshing. And they have like very smoky Lapsang su Chun and it's, it's a it's really unique experience in the world of tea.
Molly 6:43
I've never had it, but it's so interesting, like the weird the weird things that we hang on to that, like we learn about the world. I remember my mom at some point telling me that my grandfather, so her dad's favorite tea was Lapsang Souchong. Yeah. And it's just like, I don't know what to do with this knowledge. But it lives in my brain. Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:07
I usually try it so time like it's not. It's not as smoky as smoked mozzarella. Like if you get a good one. It's really nicely balanced. You know,
Molly 7:14
this. I feel like I'm veering into dangerous territory here. But Matthew, I have kind of mixed feelings about the intense smoky flavor of Benton's ham, and Benton's bacon. So Alan Benton famous pork product producer out of Tennessee, Tennessee, right. I think that's right. Yes. Yeah. What do you think? I never know smokey. Never had
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:38
the famous Benton's ham. Oh, I haven't. Okay, I would love to try it. I do. I'm glad you brought that up though. Because like new skis bacon is very much on my lane. I remember. And it's really smoke. It's really smoky. I don't remember where I learned about it first, but we used to order it online. Now they sell it at dealer ante downtown. It's a super smoky bacon. I really liked it. It's not too smoky for me. Okay, like but it is a very smell, you know, like a double smoked pig.
Molly 8:05
Sure. Okay. Yeah, Benton's bacon. There was probably a time about 10 years ago when I you know kind of got geeky and would order occasionally from Benton's and would get get the ham get the bacon. And it is delicious. It is profoundly smoky. And I think I like it. But yeah, I acquired taste I always say
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:31
you can like like, take some of the smoke flavor out of bacon by like blanching it before you cooking like Rhino feels raw. I have tried it occasionally. Like for recipe or something. I feel like you lose like a lot more than just the smoke flavor. Like you end up with bland bacon.
Molly 8:46
Yeah, yeah. Matthew, my dog is about to fall asleep on our agenda. I can't move it.
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:52
Okay. So there's one other thing I've I've Memory Lane and like, if anyone can like help me figure out where it came from? That would be great. Email me contact. It's Bill Belg podcast.com. So a thing that we say in our family, like all the time, and I came from, it came from probably like a John Thorne essay where he was like quoting some, you know, like food text from the 1800s or something. Use the phrase to mean like, smoked in a smokehouse, quote cured in the smoke, the smoke meaning the smokehouse okay cure it in the smoke is so fun to say like I'll say it like if if you know someone has recovered from an illness than they were cured in the smoothie, or like reading like you know some smoky bacon or something like wow this was really cured in the smoke I googled it and like this smooth go no trace of this phrase on Google's I don't know what's going on.
Molly 9:48
I was also thinking of it as like something you could say if somebody like really needs a showers Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 9:53
like whoa, you flow you've been cured in the smooth time to bake
Molly 10:00
Yeah, so smoked foods must be really old in the history of human cooking.
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:04
Oh, yes. So as best as I was able to find food has been smoked since the Stone Age, but the Stone Age lasted a really long time. So that's not very specific. So the Stone Age was from like, 3.3 million years ago to 12,000 years ago.
Molly 10:21
Okay, which is, which is relatively recently
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:25
ended pretty pretty recently, like, you know, the fact that like, you know, 12 12,000 years ago, like humans were like, cave and Savanna dwelling hunter gatherers. seems kind of odd.
Molly 10:38
What would you think they would be?
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:40
I don't know. Like,
Molly 10:42
do you think they already had desk jobs?
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:44
I think I think they Yeah, I think they had like stone desks stone
Molly 10:47
desks. Yeah. Oh, man, when you would bump your knee against those. Oh, wow.
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:52
It's bad enough. Now,
Molly 10:54
you'd have to go to the hospital and get cured and so they didn't even have. Anyway, so Oh, hold on. Okay, because, you know, the smoked foods go back so far in human history and are so prevalent, obviously, we are barely going to scratch
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:09
the surface of this thing you find everywhere people use fire. Yeah, so pretty wide ranging at this point.
Molly 11:16
So we're just gonna kind of like glance off the surface, like, like my knee off of a rock,
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:22
rock desk. Oh, I want to work at the Rock desk. When did the rock age and we're gonna say 1989.
Unknown Speaker 11:36
Okay, okay, go on.
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:37
Okay, so this is from Wikipedia, quote, It is supposed that early humans would hang beat up to dry it out of the way of pests, thus, accidentally becoming aware that meat that was stored in smoky areas, because people would have like, you know, fires burning in their homes acquired a different flavor, it was better preserved than meat that simply dried out. And why is that? So? It's because smoke contains a variety of compounds that act as anti microbial.
Molly 12:06
Okay. Okay. As like preservatives. Yeah, basically. Okay.
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:10
So people started building smoke houses, because, like smoking food inside your home was, could be problematic. And if you go on Google images and search for traditional smoke house, like there are so many beautiful pictures of like, old like little smoke houses and like all kinds of different styles from different cultures. And like, this is my preferred port now.
Molly 12:34
Oh, great. Okay. The only Smokehouse I can picture right now is like something you could you could truly build in your backyard like a little outhouse with some shelves in it. Oh, yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:43
that's that's absolutely it but but in you know, infinite variation. Okay. And architectural style.
Molly 12:49
Okay. What about are we going to get into cold smoking and you're gonna get it? Oh, good, because I I've always been kind of confused by that.
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:57
Yeah, I kind of was too and I think I understand it a little better now. Okay, great. Go on. Okay, so you know, fast forward to 1939 because so there was you know, people started to to produce smoked foods commercially, but still like in in a you know, small smoke house basis because there was no real way to distribute smoke throughout a large space. Okay. And so it was still done until the 20th century. Like in the way it had been done since pre history until the advent of the Tory killed in Scotland in 1939. Which was a a smoking device that was used to smoke fish in large quantities in a warehouse. Okay, so this this is according to my favorite website, meats and sausages dot quote, all previously built smoke houses dependent on a natural draft movement air going up without any means of humidity control. The Tory kiln design incorporated a motor driven fan electric heaters, temperature sensors, air diffusers and even a photo electric eye for smoke density control. So this is this is like for the first time people were able to like take a whole warehouse and control the conditions so that everything in it would smoke evenly when you
Molly 14:15
say warehouse so like a Tory kiln could that be like scaled to any size? Or was this a particularly was it like a kiln like for pottery like that?
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:24
So I think the kiln is the is the device that produces the smoke and does the environmental control and you place it in a large space God like how what's the maximum size? I don't know but pretty big. I
Molly 14:37
think I'm I'm I'm conjuring up images of the giant jam sandwich. Do you remember that? How they converted a bakery or I mean like a warehouse into an oven. Yeah. And you see the bread like bursting out of the doors.
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:52
It's probably like that. Yeah. Okay. I haven't thought about that book in a long time.
Molly 14:56
Oh, that's a good one. Matthew. So what about what about wood I mean, what about what is what you use to fire us? Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:04
not not always but usually so like you can you can use Pete for smoking you can use like loss for smoking. But, but it's typically what Okay, people quickly learned that some woods work better for smoking than others in terms of like, you know the the like burning charring properties of the wood and also the the aromas and flavors that it imparts. And so in North America I like I don't know if this actually is an interesting observation or not, but I realized as I was like, reading about like the woods used for smoking in North America, like hickory Mesquite, Applewood pecan wood sounds sounds so appetizing. I don't so I don't know if it's like that these are like, you know, you phoniest sounding words ended up themselves or just like we've looked for, you know, so many, you know, dozens of generations associated them with good eating and good smells, but like, you know, hickory smoked, like, what sounds better than that? Yes,
Molly 16:00
mesquite smells Yeah, yes. Oh, that's really interesting. But, but like these are these are like New World plants. Some of them are
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:10
Yeah, and like some some like old world, you know, woods or you know, that were brought to to North America or used for smoky but in Europe, like typically, oak, Alder and beach are the most common words interesting.
Molly 16:21
And they all impart different flavors and aromas because of the qualities of like, the actual wood. Okay,
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:29
cool. Okay, so there are two main styles of smoking, hot smoking and cold smoking. Wikipedia also mentioned warm smoking, which, like, okay,
Molly 16:40
there's also tobacco smoking. clove cigarettes. Cloves, yeah. Cannabis,
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:47
I definitely smoked a couple of clove cigarettes.
Molly 16:51
Oh my god. I remember trying to smoke a stick of incense. Somebody told me that you could like inhale the smoke from it or something. And I try. They were wrong. Yeah, it made me feel really cool, though. Yeah. Okay, go on.
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:07
I've done it. Sorry. If it's
Molly 17:10
no, no, I mean, it was it was tough. As you can imagine, it's a real dense little stick there.
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:15
Okay, so cold smoking is not really a preservation technique, it is a flavoring technique. And like it is it is more modern technique. Not that not that it was like never done, you know, before, like industrial smoking. But it's because it's not a preservation technique, you need to be really careful. And so it requires pathogen control and keeping the smoke temperature within a careful range. And so like, if you screw it, if you screw it up, you can get real sick.
Molly 17:46
I remember so, you know, one of my first jobs and certainly my first job in the food world was working as a cook in a catering kitchen when I was in high school. I remember I made 750 an hour which was a lot at the time. Still, frankly, right around today's minimum wage. Not in Washington. No, like the federal Oh yeah. Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:08
I thought you were gonna say still a lot these days like oh, no, no, no.
Molly 18:13
No, it's like a criminal. But I did things like you know, snap the tails off of a whole variety of case of green beans or anyway I was learning like for the first time working with food in large quantity Yeah, you know, like you do in in the food industry is honestly something I've never really done. Anyway But the woman I worked for one of the one of her most popular things was her cold smoked salmon. Yeah. So she would take a whole side of salmon and they had you know what looked like an oven. It was an oven with like, you know, side by side double doors and they would Cold Smoke stuff and yeah, and I still don't really I mean, is that a typical it must have been a special type of oven
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:59
well I yeah, I did not research and kind of like okay, no no ability to talk about like different types of smoking devices which I know people get super into and and I respect that and also like I've never smoked anything now cigarette
Molly 19:17
just to reiterate this is really a glancing look at it from
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:21
from like the eating side. Mostly. Yes. So like yeah, I don't I don't have a big green egg or like a I don't really have like any size or color of smoker
Molly 19:33
okay
all right, so let's get down to actually talking about
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:43
the eating I have some small brown eggs. Oh, yeah, me too.
Molly 19:47
Yeah, me too. I didn't bring him now. Yeah. What what do you what let's talk about eating smoked thing. Oh, I
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:53
was gonna say so you're smoked mozzarella that you used to they used to sell in mass quantities. Because if you tried to hot smoked cheese, it would like melt the grades. Yes. Okay. So yeah. What about bacon is bacon bacon is typically cold smoked because it's going to be cooked further.
Molly 20:08
Got it? Okay, that makes sense. So, you know, okay, obviously bacon. This is something we've talked about before we won't go into too much more of it. Hey, what about smoked ham
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:19
and bacon episode? 109 Okay, I looked up some old episodes is not always smoked. No tam can be like, cured and not smoked. Like, like a pursuit. Oh, yep. But smoked ham is very popular. And yeah, I was gonna say smoked cab is very popular. Very tasty. Yeah,
Molly 20:35
I think a great observation.
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:38
I've just been, I've just gotten a termination notice
Molly 20:42
from from the the corporate overlords.
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:46
I just felt like we were we were waiting for you to say the least interesting thing ever. And. And now, you're sent to a farm upstate. Ah, you know what a ham farm.
Molly 20:59
So here's the thing. I've never been somebody who's like really big into sandwiches. Okay, but if I'm gonna eat a sandwich, and if somebody is offering me Turkey, smoked turkey. Sure. I like quite a bit. Yeah, I agree. I like Scotch Turkey a lot. In fact, I think that all lunch Turkey should be smoked turkey.
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:18
Yeah. And I like of the deli hams. Black Forest ham is my favorite. And that's the Smokiest one.
Molly 21:24
I never thought about that. I feel like for me, the flavor of ham is just sort of like the flavor of ham. And unless it's like super smoky, like Alan Benton's Right. Um, I forget that it's even smoky.
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:37
Ya know, like deli Black Forest ham pretty darn good. So good. Like, I've never been to the Black Forest and I don't really know what it is. But I imagine it's a forest that just has like natural smoke. Kind of suffusing it at all times.
Molly 21:50
Yeah, probably. Yeah. What about jerky?
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:54
So jerky is I did not really ever think about the jerky production process, but it is typically a cold smoke and dried meat. Wow,
Molly 22:03
I just never thought about this. There's
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:06
it doesn't it's not always smoke but but like when we if you think about like, you know, the basic video of Jack Link's beef jerky, right like that. That's gonna be cold, smoked and dried.
Molly 22:15
I think that what I'm discovering is that a lot of smoked foods. The flavor of the smoke, just to me has become part of the flavor of the Haiku. Yeah, so I don't even think about jerky as being smoked. Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, barbecue. We're not going to go down this barbecue rabbit hole because we'll never come back. Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:35
I don't. Honestly, I don't think we're ever going to do a barbecue episode. i We are the least qualified people in the world to talk about barbecue.
Molly 22:42
I absolutely agree. I'm so glad that we agree. I
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:46
think I think probably it would be fair to say barbecue is the ultimate smoked food. I think that's fair. But beyond that, I don't have anything to say except that I like it.
Molly 22:56
Yes, I like it too. What about pastrami? That's a smoked,
Matthew Amster-Burton 23:00
okay, like I went down a little bit of a pastrami rabbit hole that I'm not really gonna get into on the show. But I read an interesting article from the Jewish daily forward like putting putting to rest whether pastrami is from New York, Texas or somewhere else.
Molly 23:13
Oh, these kinds of arguments that have always really not done it for me.
Matthew Amster-Burton 23:19
So I'm for sure not going to weigh in on that argument. But pastrami is a form of barbecue for sure.
Molly 23:24
Sure. Okay. So what about you know, what about in other cultures? I mean, I think what what I tend to think of as smoked food is very often like North American Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 23:37
food you know, you know, what's a smoked food that that I didn't even put on the agenda is katsuobushi remind me what this so katsuobushi is, is smoked, salted dried bonito that's usually shaved in dashes flakes for making hdaci or as a garnish or like in like all kinds of things in Japanese.
Molly 23:57
I forgot I did smoked food so it's smoked bonito. Yeah. Okay. Oh fantastic.
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:03
And like what if you if you like open a pack of fish flakes and smell it you'll smell the smoke but like you know, in you know in harmony with like the the smell of the fish so yes.
Molly 24:12
What about in like Chinese cooking
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:15
so there's there's quite a bit of smoking and Chinese cooking I think the best known dish is probably tea smoked duck, okay, which is which is smoked like like you kind of do it like in in a walk you like like convert your turn your walk into a smoker and you're so you're like burning dried tea leaves on the bottom and like have a rack setup with the duck audit that is that it's hot smoking in there. And I've you know, I've certainly never made it but I've eaten it a number of times that it's really good
Molly 24:42
did friend of the show Kenji Lopez alt include anything like that in his book, The walk?
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:47
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if he did. It's
Molly 24:50
yeah, I mean, it's so I mean, that book is just exhaustive.
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:54
Oh, you know, there's a Cook's Illustrated ribs recipe that I made once for like oven Have an smoked ribs that uses a tea smoking technique like you. You get the like, like a half sheet pan really hot and then put some some Lapsang Souchong tea Yeah. And like, like get it hot enough to smoke and then put, you know put a rack of ribs on there on a rack and sounds with foil. It was really good.
Molly 25:21
Did you notice that it was smoked tea?
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:24
Not really. You just kind of noticed that it had some some smokiness to it. Okay. Smoked. It was kind of a production. I don't think I'm gonna do it again. But it was taste.
Molly 25:34
So you know, smoked salmon? Yeah. This I think was maybe in my lifetime, one of the first smoked foods I encounter. Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:42
and I think we should do an episode I guess we should toy because like, first of all, like, smoked smoked salmon, like smoking fish in this way is like something that like indigenous communities, indigenous nations in the Pacific Northwest have done since prehistoric times. And so like, you know, that's our region. And, like, you know, it's, it's the region that to be clear that that our people took by force from the indigenous people living
Molly 26:09
here. Yes, thank you for thank you for making that mention. Okay. So,
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:13
smoking salmon, like it's a really interesting process because smoking salmon and other fish requires the formation of a pellicle which I think is a word that I've seen maybe once before. Uh huh. So it is a like a sticky protein rich outer layer that you that you get by like drying the fish under their proper conditions for smoking, and the smoke sticks to the sticky layer just like your fingers would stick to it.
Molly 26:37
And is the sticky layer kind of that beautiful shiny layer that's on the outside of some pieces of smoked salmon. Yeah, that's right. And of course there are other smoked fish too. Like haddock isn't haddock. Yeah. Mostly know how to cook is used for all kinds of
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:51
things that smoked haddock is very popular in Europe. Yep. You know, smoked smoked mackerel, like especially like like Northern Europe, smoked oysters. My dad used to eat and oh, it's smoked salmon, of course can be hot smoked or cold smoke in the two styles are like really obviously different.
Molly 27:09
Sure, sure. Oh, I'm looking forward to our smoked salmon. Yeah, we should do that. Next.
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:13
I did. Yeah. Why not? Yeah, I did. Like many years ago, when I was writing for Seattle magazine. I did a smoked salmon tasting that was really interesting. Like, it was one of those classic things where I'm like, these are gonna kind of all tastes the same, like all those hot smoked ones are going to be similar. And all the cold smoked ones are going to be similar, but they were not. Oh, that's
Molly 27:29
fantastic. And then of course, you know, I think of everybody's favorite spice in recent years smoked paprika,
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:39
P Mentone. della vita, yes. Yes. smoking, smoking dried chilies, like, like post lays also smoked like, there. To me. There's like almost no better smell than like opening a bag of dried Chipotle. And just like giving it a sniff.
Molly 27:56
What is so what is liquid smoke? All right, like I remember. So my mom always had these two bottles, like on the spice rack that were very confusing to me. And it was called Kitchen bouquet. Oh, she's not a smoked thing. It's basically like caramel coloring. And she was interesting. She would make like turkey gravy on Thanksgiving, she would always put a little bit of kitchen bouquet in it because it would make it a pretty gravy color. But other was liquids pretty gravy. The other was liquid smoke. And I was like, What is this?
Matthew Amster-Burton 28:29
Okay, this was more interesting than I realized. So I knew I sort of knew that it was like not an artificial flavor. But that's actually made from smoke. But like there's more to it than that. So the bottle of liquid smoke that I have on the shelf that I typically use mostly for making homemade barbecue sauce. Okay, is REITs and that's the original brand of liquid smoke. But they didn't invent the product. Like it's pretty old. They just came up with the name liquid smoke. So liquid smoke, like you know has been around for centuries. And it was originally called wood vinegar or Pyro ligneous acid. Ooh, that's kind of a faux scientific term because like, you know, lignin is like wood and Pyro is pyrolysis. Like some stuff we made from burning wood. Okay, and it's produced by condensing wood smoke into a liquid and it was originally
Molly 29:21
so like trapping wood smoke. Yeah, and condensing.
Matthew Amster-Burton 29:24
So it was originally a byproduct of charcoal making. So charcoal making is like you burn wood and like low, low oxygen conditions so that there's lots of stuff left burnable stuff left, that will burn in a controlled way. But when you do that, like a bunch of smoke comes off and people were like, maybe we could use this smoke for something to like, what if we condensed it? And so then they made this this thing that was for a long time called wood vinegar. Okay, and like when I say it's old, we gotta we gotta be taught to Pliny the Elder about
Molly 29:56
Yes. Oh, wait, are we gonna have a visit from Pliny do There is it from Pliny the Elder. Okay, let's let's do our Pliny the Elder Intro Music thanks thanks for Okay, Matthew you're playing the the elder right
Matthew Amster-Burton 30:13
so according, okay, there's my plan to the elder voice which I'm gonna make up on the spot. Okay, according to Wikipedia, Wikipedia Pliny the Elder recorded in one of his 10 volumes of natural history the use of wood vinegar as an evolving agent declaring it superior to other treatments he tried. I don't know why I had to do a voice for for not a quote from
Molly 30:38
me the elder sounds related to Mrs. Kubus. I think this is comparison is like a ghostly figure from our croutons episode.
Matthew Amster-Burton 30:50
Ghostly, ghostly croutons matron Yes.
Molly 30:53
On Matron. Exactly. Okay, but wait. So the right company I see here on the agenda was sued in federal court for deceptive labeling. Yes.
Matthew Amster-Burton 31:02
Because because they said is this really is this really liquid smoke. And in 1913, a federal judge found that since the product is actually made from woodsmoke, the labeling was not deceptive and that's been accepted ever since. And like I said, I keep it around for making Kenji Lopez alt barbecue sauce.
Molly 31:20
Okay, okay. You know, the last thing I think we should mention in this real flyover tour of smoked foods is is a beverage and that would be whiskey.
Matthew Amster-Burton 31:30
Yeah. So I again like like I kind of forgot until the last minute that katsuobushi is smoked. I forgot until the last minute that whiskey is made from smoked malt. So this would be like Scotch whiskey scotch,
Molly 31:43
not always. Okay, and then wait, what's the what's the whiskey? That's not like what's Laphroaig? i The whiskies it's not Highland. Is that just scotch? Because Highland whisky there's like not PD smokey right and then there's like, boy
Unknown Speaker 32:00
oh God, we've
Molly 32:01
really veered out of our comfort zone.
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:03
The barbecue people already turned the episode off, which is most people
Molly 32:07
now the whiskey people Scotch whiskey people are like dear God anyway, some
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:11
scotch whiskey is made from from malt malted barley, malted barley, right. That's been smoked with
Molly 32:18
God. I love that you think I know this? We're both disasters in this area. Alright, fine.
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:22
Well, we should we should do a whiskey episode sometime. I'm willing. I'm willing to anger the whiskey Pete.
Molly 32:27
Okay, great. Now this sounds like fun. Yeah. All right. Okay, um, wow, god. Okay, so we are gonna we're gonna do a smoked salmon episode. We're gonna do we're
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:39
not going to do a barbecue episode. That's right now we're gonna do a Chipotle episode that's going to be about the fast food chain. Oh, really? Did you just decide that I just decided I just made an executive decision I do actually the word just came down from the same corporate overlords that fired me for saying that Ham was to say told us that we've just merged with Chipotle that's cool Yeah, so now as a result that we no longer have to pay extra for Glock only perk we get that
Molly 33:09
okay all right well fine whatever you win some you lose some
Matthew Amster-Burton 33:14
volley Do you have a now but wow, do I have a now but wow
Molly 33:25
so my now but wow. Is is kind of what's kind of throwing it back a little bit. Okay, that's mine often do well, it
Matthew Amster-Burton 33:31
is Throwback Thursday.
Unknown Speaker 33:34
That's right. I guess it always is that. What was that actually
Matthew Amster-Burton 33:38
the thing or did I make that up?
Molly 33:39
No, that's like a thing on on Instagram, on the socials. Anyway, here's the deal. So perhaps our listeners are familiar with Julia tertian. Absolutely brilliant. We are lucky to live in the same time as Julia tertian. Writer, past guest of the show, Julia tertian. All right, well, Julia tertian. Earlier this year did sort of a number of like focused episodes of her podcast, okay. And on one of them. She interviewed the romance writer, Jasmine Guillory. Oh, yeah. Have you read Jasmine Guillory books? Yes. So Jasmine Guillory is so prolific. I subscribe to her newsletter, too. She's had a new book come out this year. Actually, it may be coming out right about now. But what I wanted to mention was an episode of Julia tertians podcast in which she interviews Jasmine Guillory, and they talk about the way that Jasmine Guillory uses food in her romance. Oh, I love this, and it's great. So anyway, what you're gonna do is you're going to look up Julia tertians podcast, which is called Keep Calm and click on OK, there's an episode from earlier this year with Jasmine Guillory and then you're gonna go out and you are going to get Jasmine Guillory his books.
Matthew Amster-Burton 34:50
Yeah, I think by the time you hear this, we'll put that in the show notes. I think by the time you hear this, it will be much easier to find the show notes on our website because we're gonna have a new website. Great. it hopefully will be available by by now. Yeah, and so yeah, just go to spilled milk podcast.com Look at this episode and the show notes will be right there. Oh,
Molly 35:08
it is delightful listening to these two these two women who both really care about food and know a lot about food and Jasmine Guillory is just like a force of nature. Okay, she's so prolific. She's so delightful and listening to her talk about using food in writing. romance in particular was great. So
Matthew Amster-Burton 35:27
I'm going to download this right now. Can you cook on Julia tertians Podcast? I'm not I'm not. I'm going to do it right now. I'm not even going to finish this episode. I'm out.
Molly 35:36
Wow. by Matthew.
Matthew Amster-Burton 35:37
I mean, I got fired 15 minutes. It's tasty. Said they said I could I could put in my like 14 minutes. No.
Molly 35:45
That sounds right. All right. Well, thank you for listening to spilled milk. Where were you know what, I'm going to keep things interesting here as our solo hosts and I'm gonna say ham is not tasty. Just kidding. I'm Molly Weissenberg.
Matthew Amster-Burton 36:00
And I'm Matthew Amster-Burton. Oh, nice.
I, what else