Today we bring the drama right away as Molly accuses Matthew of an unforgivable crime. We attempt to remember our memory as we trawl for redundant desserts and encounter unexpected consequences as we swim against a current of knowledge.
Molly's Now but Wow! - Kiese Laymon and Tressie McMillan Cottom on The Ezra Klein Show, November 9, 2021. “Two Acclaimed Writers on the Art of Revising Your Life.”
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Molly 0:04
I can't even Matthew,
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:06
I can't believe I'm being I'm being chastised on my own podcast. So
Molly 0:10
Matthew, who purchased the smoked salmon for today's episode, which you're about to learn is about smoked salmon. And he went out and bought fresh bagels this morning at a nearby bagel shop. And then I say, I say to him, do you have some cream cheese? And he says, No. So he went out and bought bagels and smoked salmon now, and we have no cream cheese.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:35
You're few. I would like to submit it to evidence did I? Or did I not text you yesterday? I'd say I'd say I'm gonna get smoked salmon. Is there anything? I should be sure and pick up?
Molly 0:47
Oh my God, dude. And then you said I'm gonna get bagels. I'm sorry. Cream cheese is just built into that. I didn't think I had asked for
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:55
it. But I don't like cream cheese. And you know this.
Molly 0:59
I forget. I forget that the swath of things you don't like is so broad.
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:03
It is mostly creamy. We still we do still do the show or we canceled. My Molly and I met
Molly 1:15
don't melt the show. We cook something delicious. Eat it all and you can't have any and today
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:19
we're talking about smoked salmon. Hmm. And I just remembered a memory lane. It's often like I go to I go to like put my memory lane on the agenda. I'm like, I can't think of anything. And then as we're getting started suddenly like it jogs my memory.
Molly 1:33
Okay. Do you remember what your memory was?
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:38
Got it again. No. years ago, my friend Adam came up to visit and he told me that his his dad had told him I'm not going to try and do his dad's accent but that his dad had told him you're going to Seattle. I want you to bring me back a fish in a box. And Adams like do you know what he was talking about? I'm like, Yeah, I think I could hook you up with a fish in a box.
Molly 2:01
That's pretty great. Except that's not usually smoked salmon. That's not it. Well, do you mean like fish in like a gift box?
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:08
I mean, like, like a like a wooden box with smoked salmon.
Molly 2:12
Oh, okay. I thought you meant like salmon packed on like ice. No, not not a fresh fish. Okay, got it. Got it. Back when I co owned Glancy, our CPA, used to give us a whole side of smoked salmon every year for Christmas old smokes. So here's the thing, it was Atlantic salmon. And I feel like this to me is just an indicator of the fact that maybe food wasn't the most important thing to our seizure
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:43
of I did get a little Atlantic hot smoked salmon here today. It's sustainably fished. Okay, and I just like the black pepper garnish on it looks really tasty to me. And I also liked that the brand was flopping. Oh, sorry.
Molly 2:59
It's Norwegian. It's Norwegian. Yeah. Wait a minute. Okay, Matthew, let's let's really quickly, I don't know where to begin, but I really want to taste some of this. Should I just eat some and then we'll talk? Yeah, absolutely.
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:10
So I got some Gerard and Dominique cold smoked wild sockeye salmon. Okay, I got some hot smoked Alaskan wild sockeye salmon. Alderwood. Smoked, Mr. B. Bop, and hot smoked Norwegian Atlantic salmon with black pepper.
Molly 3:26
Okay, the key differences here are hot smoked and cold smoke. And I think I'd probably take salmon or Pacific salmon. These to me are the big differences. So alright, now that I've had a little taste, I'm ready to talk my memory lane. So I have these half siblings who are a good deal older than me. And they all live on the east coast. So they're Atlantic salmon, and they are my half siblings are Atlantic salmon. And when I was growing up, if they would come visit for Christmas, as they often did before they were all married and had children of their own. They would be tasked with bringing kind of, you know, the traditional like, smoked salmon or lox, some like slice provolone, some good capers. I think they even brought bagels because I don't think there was a bagel shop in in Oklahoma City when I was at the age I'm thinking of. And so I remember seeing my dad and my half siblings kind of like know how to do how to put out this kind of spread. That would have been cream cheese. It would have been locks, which we'll talk about in a second
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:34
glad because I wasn't sure how locks fit into.
Molly 4:37
We're gonna we're gonna fit them in. So yeah, cream cheese locks, thinly sliced tomato, thinly sliced red onion. We did provolone, cheese, and capers. And of course, I being a kid, you know, would dramatically simplify, but this was what we did on some Christmas mornings when I was a kid. Excellent.
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:57
Yeah, this was a food that I was scared of as a kid. I didn't Even like like grilled salmon I don't know why. And like, unlike other things like kimchi that now I love and eat all the time, like I still I don't dislike smoked salmon anymore at all, but I never think to get it.
Molly 5:12
Yeah, I don't think to buy it often either. When I was a kid, my dad loved to fish. It was like his main hobby. And so twice a year he would go on these fishing trip trips with his bros. And by which I mean his friends, not his actual brothers. In fact, I don't know that his brother fishes anyway. Anyway, so they would go to a place called Vallejo in New Mexico. And no, Vallejo is in California. Sorry. No, they would go to a different place. New Mexico, and I don't know what it was called. But they would fish for trout there, which then they would smoke. Wow. Did they ever smoke out? My dad have a little had a little smoker? Yeah. And then they would go to Alaska. And this was like the big boys trip. Yeah. And they would do salmon fishing there and my dad would come home with a whole bunch of salmon to put in the freezer. And some of it I believe he would also smoke.
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:11
Was this like fly fishing? Yes. Could I name any other types of fishing? Pole fishing?
Molly 6:18
trawler,
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:20
I was gonna say trawling next, also,
Molly 6:23
reef net fishing.
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:25
But are these like things like types of fishing you would do with your bros? I feel like these are things you would do with like your commercial, like fishing vessel.
Molly 6:31
That's right. Anyway, so yeah, as a kid, smoked salmon and smoked trout. Were pretty normal things in my household, but I really don't remember what my parents did with them. Okay. Cool story. And I'm showing Yeah, I'm going to talk more in just echoes
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:48
of great episodes. Okay, I've tried two out of three so far. I've only
Molly 6:55
tried one. All right. So let's dive into smoked salmon. And along the way, we're going to discuss locks. And we're going to talk about some other stuff.
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:05
We're gonna swim upstream against a current of knowledge. Yes,
Molly 7:08
here we go. So smoked salmon. Typically, it is a fillet that has been cured. We're going to talk more about this in a second cured and then hot or cold smoked. Yeah. Okay. So it's sometimes called locks, but they're actually different things. So locks is a filet of brined salmon that may or may not be smoked. All right. Okay. Whereas smoked salmon has always smoked. All right, got that. Also, I learned that locks as in like lax or la que es is mean salmon in Scandinavian languages.
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:43
I'm getting called from Mr. Etymology, is it okay if Mr. Etymology joins in, because I learned so this is a thing that I want to be true, but I'm not totally convinced is true, because it's like too perfect. But according to some articles I read locks may be the oldest word in the English language, that the word in proto indo European, so like 8000 years ago was essentially this pronounced the same and meant salmon.
Molly 8:10
Wow, that is wild to me that humans have had that long a relationship with salmon. Yeah, surely went the longest,
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:22
the longest relationship. But we like things are getting kind of Rocky, there might be a breakup,
Molly 8:28
and this show has been together for for almost 13 years. So like the most of that time, this is one of also the longest relationships that's sort of in history. Anyway, um, what I'm trying to say is, we're not really going to be talking about locks here, we're not going to get into Grob locks or how you might make locks at home, we're going to be talking about smoked salmon, which, as you will have noticed, if you're someone who likes smoked salmon, looks, tastes and is served in many different ways depending on where you are and what the traditions are there. Well, right here. Oh, great to meet you. So let's start with North American cities on the East Coast. Okay. So there you might often find smoked salmon called Nova, after Nova Scotia smoked salmon, which is quite common there. And it's likely to be sliced very thinly, as is one of the ones we've got here on the plate here. So it's likely to be sliced very thinly and served often on bagels with cream cheese, often with all the other things I mentioned. And I
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:34
keep saying cream cheese just to like drive a knife in I
Molly 9:38
do. And it often has a fairly soft, delicate texture. Yeah, and this is because it is cold smoked, and we're going to come back around to that. So
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:49
this episode came out of our smoked foods episode where we just did a really high level overview of smoked foods. Yeah.
Molly 9:56
So Yeah, what'd you think of as you know, The kind of salmon that you might get like in New York deli or something right now is going to be what we're talking about here slice very thinly, really delicate, probably cold smoked. And on on the East Coast pretty much all the smoked salmon is made from Atlantic salmon. That makes sense and most Atlantic salmon that enters the market is farmed in either like Norway, Scotland, Ireland, or in I believe it's called the Bay of Fundy which is in Eastern Canada. So that is one type of smoked salmon. Alright, that many of us have probably encountered that said If you've spent any time in the Pacific Northwest I have you will have encountered a very different version of smoked salmon which isn't generally sold in thin slices. In fact, it would be difficult to slice into thin slices. It is also sold in filets, but but also like nuggets almost and like candy versions. So it is a hot smoked salmon, which has a meteor texture. It's firmer, tends to be a little bit drier almost kind of jerky like sometimes. It is primarily made from it is entirely made from Pacific salmon. And so that includes many different types. So King or Chinook, sockeye, coho Pink Salmon, often when you see like Alaskan wild smoked Sockeye patches on this package, what what you've got there is a hot smoked product that is what is traditional to Pacific Northwest salmon smoking.
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:36
Yeah, that's interesting. On the smoking smoked food show, we talked about how like hot smoking is a much older practice than cold smoking. Yeah, that makes sense.
Molly 11:44
Yes, hot smoking is how you know First Nations Canadian people and also indigenous tribes in in the US the West Coast of the US. It is how they prepared or preserved salmon right. So and then, you know, of course, smoked salmon is also consumed outside of the United States and Canada. In Europe, you more often encounter the more delicate cold smoked slice kind. You might find it in patties in quiches. I remember encountering it a lot and quiches in France scrambled eggs apparently, in the UK. It's served with brown bread and a squeeze of lemon and Germany. You might find it on black bread. Anyway, yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:28
Do you have like a preference that you know going in like that you like hot or cold smoked salmon better to
Molly 12:35
me. They serve entirely different purpose. Okay,
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:38
so hold on. Why is there food I've just taken like a facemask that's really good with some cream cheese
Molly 12:51
if I'm having a bagel with cream cheese, let's say I want cold smoked like thin sliced salmon. That to me, it's easier to bite through it as a really nice texture on top of like the chewiness of a bagel. However, if I am going to be for instance putting like smoked salmon, crumbling it over a salad or serving it? I don't know like sometimes in Seattle at like a party or something you will encounter a filet of smoked salmon. Oh yeah, that's like on a board kind of just ready to have like bits chunked off of it. And I think that's
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:33
the classic Pacific Northwest chunk off
Molly 13:37
of and you would never eat like cold smoked like thin sliced salmon in that quite that same way. I don't think so. I feel like these thin slices invite themselves to be put on top of other things Yeah. Even like an eggs benedict kind of situation even an eggs benedict whereas like epic Northwest the last time I had an eggs benedict because I struggle with that amount of sauciness me too. Anyway whereas like a Pacific Northwest salmon I mean you might encounter like salmon jerky that's more of a Pacific Northwest hot smoked style and I would reach for that with a very different like wanting something very different from Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:18
I think for me I they clearly leaned toward the hot smoked style like I don't I don't dislike the Cold Smoke style but like I'm not like a you know, pile things on a bagel type of person generally. And so like I just I just find a hot smoke kind of more snackable
Molly 14:35
the hot smoked is is fully snackable and also this this fop
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:38
and hot smoked Atlantic with black pepper. I'm really diggin this. It's really good.
Molly 14:44
It's really interesting and as such Oh really? Yeah. Yeah, I would say that the Pacific Northwest like hot smoked, is very snackable Yep, chewy. Okay, so just a quick overview like you know, fish gets smoked, to preserve against spoilage by microorganisms. Yeah, same reason that that other foods have been smelled the
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:07
way you said that sort of make it makes it sound like the fish is like trying to get smoked. Yeah
Molly 15:12
just leaps into the smoker. You know what, what preserves it is, of course, not just the smoke, but also you know, the salts and things like that, that it is cured or like dry brined with before it is smoked. And then in the case of hot smoking, which would have been the, like older, you know, more indigenous practice. The heat also, of course, would have been great for preserving and killing bacteria. So yeah, as we mentioned, you know, indigenous peoples were smoking salmon, like way before commercial fishing was going on out here. And in the 1800s for it before you and your dad started trawling. That's right. In the 1800s, the American smoked salmon industry took off on this coast, the West Coast, processing the like abundance of delicious Pacific salmon from Alaska and other parts of the Pacific Northwest. But in other places like on the East Coast, and I think this is why maybe we associate or I associate this like thin sliced cold smoked salmon, with other like sort of Jewish delicacy definitely, is because smoked fish was a huge part of Jewish cultures in Russia and Poland. And came in fact to the UK in the 1800s with Jewish immigrants from Russia and Okay, yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. The first smoked salmon factory This is according to Wikipedia. This seems kind of bonkers to me, but was in what is current day Poland in the seven hundreds.
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:43
Wow, was that part of the Hanseatic League. The timing is all wrong for that. I just felt great.
Molly 16:49
Apparently, again, according to Wikipedia, smoked salmon was also a common dish in Greek and Roman culture. Hmm, doesn't that sound weird? Like it's not a Mediterranean fish?
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:00
Like what if I try and like visualize like, what ancient Greeks and Romans were eating? Like, I don't even know I feel like they were eating a lot of grapes, a lot of grapes. Olive oil. Mostly those things.
Molly 17:12
But yeah, again, this is one situation where I'm kind of inclined to take Wikipedia with a grain of wet brine. Okay, try Brian. Granger drive, right? Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, most smoked salmon that that we encounter in the US I think is more in the cold smoked vein here.
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:32
Yeah, that makes sense. So I stuff I think like the hot smoke really like remains kind of like a Pacific Northwest specialty thing now you can't find it in other places. But like if you do it's probably like a you know, imported from Oregon.
Molly 17:45
I found an article from the New York Times in 1981. That was the headline was something like Coast Indians introduce new smoked salmon. Sure. And it was that somebody in New York City was importing from i It sounded like from someone who was a representative of maybe one of the Salish peoples Yeah. had come up with some sort of a commercial operation for doing traditional hot smoked salmon and it was a big novelty in New York.
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:21
Yeah, so I think I want to mention before I forget like I was I was curious about the ingredients on like this, you know, hot smoked Alaskan Sockeye and wonder if it was gonna be like a long ingredient list it is not it is smoked sockeye salmon brown sugar salt, that is delight not bad at all. That's great
Molly 18:44
when we say cold smoked what we mean is like around 99 degrees Fahrenheit, so it's not like cold air. But it's also that with this Suzanne Vega song is about That's exactly right. Do you do you mean my name is Luca?
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:57
That's the saga Yes.
Molly 18:59
I live on the second floor. Yeah. I live upstairs from you. You smell my smoked fish
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:07
if you smell something like you're very very serious song about a very serious stuff.
Molly 19:15
So cold smoking obviously doesn't cook the fish which is part of why the texture stays really delicate All right, so yeah, and then Pacific Northwest smoked salmon. Apparently I don't know if this is the case for all smoked salmon but I read this about Pacific Northwest hot smoked salmon that you not only need to brine it but then allow sufficient time for drying before you hot smoke it otherwise the albumin comes out of the fish and looks nasty. That makes sense.
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:42
Like we talked about this like, like you have to develop a pellicle exactly right for like the smoke to stick to so it's like partly, partly aesthetics. Partly functional.
Molly 19:54
Okay. I was finding many different methods of brining that are done I don't really understand why they're done when
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:02
fly brining trawling
Molly 20:05
it seems that some some things happen with wet brining. Some things happen. But it seems to me that a lot of smoked salmon certainly salmon preserving in general is very often done with a dry rub, or what we might call a dry brine. Make sense? Like well think of grab blocks, which again is not smoked, but that's a dry rub.
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:29
This I think I remember my parents making that once. Me too,
Molly 20:33
and this Alaskan hot smoked salmon, which has just brown sugar, salt and salmon, this would have been a dry a dry chair. That makes sense. What is the difference between curing and dry bro?
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:45
Curing I think has to have some sort of curing salt in it like like a nitrate.
Molly 20:50
Okay, okay, that definitely does go into some some salmons. Apparently, according to Wikipedia, again, native peoples on the West Coast of the US they cured their salmon before hot smoking. And it was a particular type of curing called Kipper ring.
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:07
I definitely I'm definitely familiar with that word, but I don't know what it means as opposed to like other types of smoked fish.
Molly 21:13
Okay, great. Anyway,
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:15
I'm sure there's a ton kippered Herring is definitely a thing my dad would eat. Oh, yes.
Molly 21:19
It's one of those old world Yep, food in jars. I bet there's a lot of stuff that I have not thought of to research on this topic. But for me, it was really helpful. I don't think even though I've now lived in Seattle for 20 years, I don't think I ever considered why it is that the smoked salmon I've seen most often here is so different from what I encounter. And
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:41
like I really thought about it either. And like, ya know, like have so we tried three different kinds, like the hot smoked Atlantic salmon was my favorite just because it's the fattiest I wonder if it's because it was farmed? Probably. But I mean, I all of them are good.
Molly 21:57
I mean, this is not to say I mean, wild salmon can be extremely fatty. But I think that is one thing that is often a way of getting like flavor,
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:05
ya know, and I think I chose I chose sockeye salmon for the other ones because I knew it would be like local ish, and he's like, you know, I feel like probably the most flavorful yes of the salmons like king salmon is certainly the fattiest of the of the Western salmons, specific specific salmons. But like I don't know if I've seen I'm sure I'm sure like smoked king salmon exists. I haven't really seen it because I think it tends to be sold for like eating fresh because it's like a premium item and will probably be quite expensive smoked.
Molly 22:39
If you go to farmers markets here in Seattle, there's almost always at least one vendor. Yeah, I've smoked salmon and like all different things like you could find like a maple smoked salmon or a brown sugar smoked salmon. Different types of salmon. And I venture to guess that that all if not, almost all of those are going to be hot smoked.
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:59
Yeah, I do feel like if you think of Seattle and think smoked salmon, like we're actually not going to let you down in that department. Because I went to QFC like my local like regular supermarket and there were like 20 products to choose from.
Molly 23:13
It's pretty cool. So do you ever buy this stuff? How do you eat it? What do you do with it?
Matthew Amster-Burton 23:18
This is the first time I bought it. Like probably in 20 years.
Molly 23:22
Me too. I go through periods where Occasionally, I'll be like, I should eat more fish. Yeah, and same thing. And so I'll buy like some smoked trout or some smoked salmon because I feel like it's something I really enjoy eating and it requires no cooking, but I don't tend to cook with it. I mean, I've certainly had quiches as I mentioned, Oh rats that had smoked smoked salmon. Fantastic. I would never think of making a salad with this. But that would be really, really intense. But it does happen. No, I mean, like a mayonnaise based so no, I don't think that should never happen. It's like too potent. Yeah, I definitely would. We're gonna hear from the person who does though. I definitely would toss this into like a green salad though. That's a fantastic sounds great. Yeah. And yeah, I think one thing that I really love about Pacific Northwest hot smoked salmon is truly how snackable it is,
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:18
ya know, I now I've got a bunch of this left, and I'm excited to have this lurking in my fridge.
Molly 24:24
Do you have any new ideas for how you're going to use
Matthew Amster-Burton 24:28
it? Oh, boy, like real way to put me on the spot. Like, I feel like this is the kind of question that like, people used to ask me back when I was a food writer. Do you see any trends? You see any trends? Right? So I think I'm gonna say smoothies. Okay. I mean, they're full. They're full of like, you know, omega three fatty acids, like things that people want in their smoothies. Mm hmm. Yeah, I have no no preservatives, other than like, not natural wood smoke. Yeah.
Molly 24:57
Oh, yeah. Sign me up. Okay. Well, this This has been our smoked salmon episode. And I feel like I kind of learned a lot.
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:04
I feel like I did too, honestly. And that's not what I expect from the show. That is
Molly 25:08
not what I expect from the show either. You know, Matthew, do we have any spilled mail this time? You know, I think we do actually do.
Matthew Amster-Burton 25:15
Oh, we oh, we just came in this morning
I'm gonna read it and then we're gonna just both look at each other, like, in a puzzled way. Okay, I'm ready. This goes for listener Gina and the subject is redundant desserts question. You know, when you have guests and they both bring their famous brownies, or their apple pies, or their bbka Is it just me or does it become a quiet little competition? Do you eat them? Both? Yin Yang them on your plate? Do you finish one and then start the other or go back and forth? And you have to praise them equally? What exactly is the etiquette of redundant dessert? XOXO Gina my question to you Molly. Has this ever happened to you in your life has never happened to me in my there? Gina sounds like she lives like a an amazing life where people are always coming over and bring you desserts.
Molly 26:07
This is this is a way of life I had never considered
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:11
now you're gonna be having a baby soon. Yeah, and I bet yeah, we're gonna bring you food. I really get some redundant dessert. I
Molly 26:19
think we are going to work with food. I think we may even have one of those meal train. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty pumped. Yeah, please. I mean, I would love to have some redundant desserts. And I think that I look forward to navigating the tricky social waters of problem. You know, I'm thinking about it. And I think that the it never happens to me. And if we're going over to somebody's house, and we offer to bring something you know, inevitably only one family is asked to bring dessert. And therefore, yeah, this still just doesn't happen.
Matthew Amster-Burton 26:54
No, but I wish it did. And thank you. Thank you listener Gina for bringing this problem to our attention. Thank
Molly 27:00
you for giving us something to aspire to.
Matthew Amster-Burton 27:03
I feel like I feel like Gina is even kind of a fancy name. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have I have like a full mental image of listener Gina's amazing life. And and I'm gonna carry it with me all day. Wonderful. Do you have it now? But wow,
Molly 27:17
I sure do.
So Matthew, do you ever find I think you've listened to a lot more podcasts than I do. But do you ever have ones that like you know, are going to be really good and you save them like now is not the right time. So I had this one from the Ezra Klein show this one episode that I have literally saved for Well, as of this taping, I had saved it for almost a year. Okay. Okay. It was an episode, the title of it was two acclaimed writers on the art of revising your lie like that. Okay. So, yeah, this was an episode from November 9 2005. Could use quite a bit of revision. Well, this is a fantastic episode. What what it is, is when Ezra Klein was on paternity leave, he designated some other other people he admires to host the show, basically, and do whatever they wanted with his show. And one of the people he invited was Tressie McMillan cottom, who is a fantastic writer. Really, I don't know if she identifies as a cultural critic, but I just feel like that that fits for the way I think about her work. Anyway, she invited on to be her guest, the writer KSA Lehmann, who is the author of the memoir, heavy, the book long division, another book called I believe, how to kill other how to kill yourself and others in America are okay, no, I'm messing that title up, forgive me. Anyway, here's the deal. Basically, you get this long conversation between the two of them, both of them writers, both of them black Americans, talking about their relationship to revision as like not only a writer's practice, but as like a revision as a way of like reckoning with history. Sure, vision and the idea of like, a way of living, being willing to reconsider your past actions, your complicity in certain things, and even touched on like, an essay that KSA Lehmann, at one point wrote about Michael Jackson and one that he wrote, I think about NWA and, and he has gone back and revised those in light of like, changing perspectives that he has in relation to these artists. So it was really interesting to think about, I think, especially well, for many reasons, but also, in the whole idea of like, what do we do with art by Monstress people, people who we've canceled
Matthew Amster-Burton 29:56
this is a very active conversation in my house or Yeah, I like it was one of the last like big conversations that teenager of the show December at I had like before before I sent them off to college and now they can have those conversations. Yeah, they're college friends
Molly 30:09
well, so it touches on all kinds of stuff. I mean, what you know what it means to be to be a black Southern American writer. Like what it means to be a country that doesn't like to look at its history. And then also these interesting questions about art and like, how do we deal with art that we have loved when we change our minds about the people who made it? So it's a fantastic interview, well worth a listen. It is from the Ezra Klein show on November 9 2021, and we will link to it in the show notes. Yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 30:41
Which you can now easily get to on our websites build node podcast.com Highly recommend. So asked me what I'm snacking. Good, good transition.
Molly 30:51
Sorry, I was drinking some water, which is Anakin. Matthew. Hey, watch your
Matthew Amster-Burton 30:55
snacking, daddy. Gotta tell me what you snack in. Or I'll release the Kraken. So what's your snack in I am once again snacking on a cookie made by Watson from the from the cookbook 100 cookies by Sarah kefir. And these are the chocolate sugar cookies, we made them to put into a care package for Tots D but of course, like save some to eat ourselves. And there I was kind of skeptical of them. Because like, even though chocolate is my favorite thing in the world, like, you know, there are some things where I hear like, where, you know, I feel like if someone someone says I took this and added chocolate to it, like I thinking like did that really need chocolate? Like do we need to put chocolate in everything? And in this case, the answer is yes. Because like this is just a really good chewy sugar cookie with some cocoa powder in it. It's got like great texture and great chocolate flavor. And it's in the book 100 cookies by Sarah kefir.
Molly 31:51
I'm not snacking anything particularly notable. That's fine, but I'll try to do better next time. Yeah, smoked salmon. Don't both have to be snacking something every week. I mean, I'm always snacking, but it's just not always very interesting. Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:02
I also I also got a big bag of peanut butter m&ms.
Molly 32:06
Yes. Wait, peanut butter as opposed to peanut? Yes. Wow. Okay. All right.
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:12
It were placed a bag of peanut m&ms that we just finished.
Molly 32:15
Okay, I love peanut butter m&ms. And I'm sure I know we've done an episode on this, but I prefer them over Reese's Pieces.
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:22
Oh, definitely. Yeah. Although sometimes I really get a craving for Reese's Pieces specifically.
Molly 32:28
I don't. Okay, okay. Our producer is Abby, sir. Catella
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:31
who never gets a craving for Reese's Pieces. I'm
Molly 32:34
gonna bet you can rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Yep, please
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:38
subscribe to Molly's newsletter. It's, it's called I've got a feeling and it's at Molly weisenberg.substack.com.
Molly 32:45
And you can chat with other spilled milk listeners on our subreddit that is reddit.com/are/everything spilled milk. So
Matthew Amster-Burton 32:53
until next time, thank you for listening to spilled milk. The show that we're trawling for, for jokes, and second the nets coming up empty. I'm Matthew Amster-Burton.
Molly 33:04
I'm Molly Weisenberg. Bless you