We're back at these wine doppelgängers and still trying to decide when and where and why we'd drink these. We wonder about ships in bottles, definitions of Woodruff and coffee after dark before declaring our values and deciding everything is about context. Finally, we're gifted with more advent calendar insights. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
Molly's Now but Wow: Yotam Ottolenghi's herb pie
Molly 0:00
Hi. I'm Molly.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:05
And I'm Matt.
Molly 0:06
And this is spilled milk, the show where we cook something delicious. Eat it all, and you can't have any.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:10
And today we're talking about proxy wine.
Molly 0:13
That's right. So a couple of weeks ago, whenever that was was a couple of weeks ago, was it like may 2 or something? Maybe? Think so? Yeah, yeah. Be
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:24
Okay. A
Molly 0:24
couple of weeks ago, we did an episode called non alcoholic wines. And in that episode, we discovered that there are actually two different types of non alcoholic wine. There's D alcohol iced wines, which is what we wound up focusing on that episode.
Matthew Amster-Burton 0:38
And but yeah, the ones we tried, we did not like free most
Molly 0:41
did not like so today we are going to taste the other kind. They are called proxy wine. And the idea is that whereas the alcohol iced wine starts with wine and takes the alcohol out of it, proxy wines are usually a blend of fruit juice, spices, teas, etc. that have been made to either taste like wine or to sort of drink like wine. Yeah, I
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:06
mean, certainly these bottles that I'm looking at that you bought look like bottles of wine. They do. They do. One of them is lightly fizzing. One of them is lately because I'm excited. Yeah.
Molly 1:15
So the majority of non alcoholic wines are D alcohol iced wines. And I think that if you're looking for something that tastes like wine, you're probably gonna wind up buying a D alcohol,
Matthew Amster-Burton 1:25
right. But what we found, I think, is that all of the ones we'd really like to have them I actually hated but like all of them fell into sort of like a wine uncanny valley. Yeah. And so so now we're going to try this again, but with something that is not purporting to taste like wine. That's right. So when things purport you
Molly 1:42
know, we talked about this a little bit in the non alcoholic wine episode, but But basically, the reason it's hard to get good D alcohol iced wines and why you might be better off playing around with something like we're going to be tasting today is that basically compared to beer, wine has a higher alcohol content. So if you're going to take the alcohol out of the product, it's like that much more flavor. Yeah, much more of the whole makeup of the beverage that you're removing. So you know, body aromatics, the balance of it. Alcohol is a lot of what gives wine those qualities, whereas beer is usually lower alcohol.
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:23
Have you ever gotten a bottle of wine that had a ship in the bottle? That's also hard to take.
Molly 2:29
That is really hard to take out. Yeah, it's
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:31
hard to get it in there in the first place. But have you ever tried to like, get out of a bottle?
Molly 2:35
Yeah, yeah. No, I think that you probably would do it by like vacuum distillation. I think so. Definitely a vacuum.
Matthew Amster-Burton 2:42
When you were a kid. Did you ever get really into the I mean, really into his exaggeration, but did you think ships in a bottle were really cool when you were a kid?
Molly 2:50
I found myself absolutely mystified. Yeah, we couldn't fathom how it worked. And isn't it just that they're made in such a way that they like fold flat, and you feed them in and then pull some string? And they like, Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:03
but the way you're saying that makes it sound like you think you could do this?
Molly 3:07
No, I can't do this. But why can't I mean it? They're so common.
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:11
Yeah, there's so there's so how many do you How many do you have like on your mantel,
Molly 3:16
but really, you see chips in a bottle? Like you're right, you're not It's not like the hope?
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:22
Do you know what I bet I bet like you could go on Amazon now and buy a ship with a bottle of course, but also by just the ship that's like, like a cylindrical thing that you can stick in a bottle and then pull the strings yourself,
Molly 3:33
Matthew, I kind of want to look it up and see how much this would. Okay, all right. Okay,
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:37
okay. Oh, you're all sorry. I'll pour our first proxy wine. Should we start with the white? Yes,
Molly 3:41
yes. Okay, so here's the deal. The other thing that makes D alcohol iced wines, but
Matthew Amster-Burton 3:47
you said you didn't look up the shape of the bottle. Oh, sorry.
Molly 3:50
Okay, let's look it up. So on Amazon. I'm going to do a search for ship in a bottle ship in a bottle kit ship in a bottle Lego set?
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:00
No, no. I mean, yes, I believe you but, but I don't want to ship in a bottle Legos.
Molly 4:05
Listen, I can get a ship in a bottle for 1999. Right, Amazon now.
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:11
How big? Are we talking?
Molly 4:12
I don't know. I didn't look it up far. Anyway, um, the other thing that makes it so that de alcohol iced wines are not often very tasty is that, you know, because it's such a labor intensive process to remove the alcohol, they often wind up using cheaper wines to sort of compensate for the costs Sure, of the de alcoholic nation. So you went into
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:32
labor intensive process. Do you have to like scoop it out with a little spoon? You
Molly 4:35
scoop out the alcohol but the spoon? Yeah, yeah. So if you want to try something else, there are these proxy wines and they don't start with fermented grape juice, like like wine does. Some start with Vera zoo, which we looked up two weeks ago.
Matthew Amster-Burton 4:52
Oh, I already forgot what it was. It's like unripe grape juice.
Molly 4:56
There we go. Some of them start with tea. There's that brand toast tea Oh with an EU bailout s tea
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:05
with toast. I've seen it the same joke two weeks ago and we're gonna make the same joke two weeks from
Molly 5:09
now. I know I've seen it a Ballard market maybe some other places that play starts with white. I mean that that product starts with white tea. Okay, well let's look at what is in this white.
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:21
Toasted cinnamon and yuzu Nan. Nan is the brand name made in Australia, yuzu whole oranges, virtue cinnamon and Murray River Salt. Now you think you'd be able to see the whole oranges if there are a whole oranges in there, but smells good. It does smell good. I like that much better than anything we had last time.
Molly 5:39
I agree. And this tastes more like wine than I expected it to.
Matthew Amster-Burton 5:43
It's got a really good tartness to it. It's definitely like sweeter than then like a dry wine you would drink with food for the most part, but I like it. I like
Molly 5:52
it too. So the guy at the non alcoholic beverage place where I bought this which is called cheeky and drive on Phinney ridge. The guy working there, said that I should not expect this to taste like wine that I should drink it out of a wine glass, but it's not meant to taste like wine. I don't know, man. I think this one is trying to taste like wine.
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:15
Kind of yeah, like I don't. I think if you put it in a lineup with some white wines is the one but it's not. It's not like radically different. The
Molly 6:25
only thing is this is a very expensive product. Like stupid expensive.
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:30
I get the salt by the way.
Molly 6:31
I do too. Yeah. So this one and again, the producer is Nan and O N it this is non number three. Oh, right. I think they have seven different types. I think all numbered. It was 30 bucks for a bottle. I mean, that is I don't even spend that much on a bottle of wine. Unless it's like Christmas, right?
Matthew Amster-Burton 6:51
Yeah, yeah. The Christmas the Christmas blend. Yeah. Yeah. But like, you know if it were a festive occasion, like a dry, festive occasion for like me and like my closest compadres tried to put together your situation your proxies?
Molly 7:12
proxies? Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:13
No proxies, proxies. I like the product. The fact that it's that it's not alcoholic like doesn't doesn't inherently mean to me that it should cost less, but that is pretty expensive.
Molly 7:25
That said, I think this is a pretty balanced flavor profile. And it feels special.
Matthew Amster-Burton 7:30
Yeah, this is this is way way better than any of the things we tried last time. Okay,
Molly 7:35
so another brand that I wanted to try, but if we had mail ordered it, we had to mail order a minimum of four bottles sure, is a brand called proxies. You can find it online. We can link to it in the show notes. I've heard very good things about their proxy wines as well. They are developed with some very highly regarded chefs. They've got real good look and branding.
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:02
Good luck in shafts.
Molly 8:02
The other one that I was interested in is called Murie. M You are i i saw it on the website of a non alcoholic retailer named boss Saul
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:14
will link to moody like impossible in Japanese. Oh, maybe could be. We'll
Molly 8:19
link to it in the show notes. Anyway, they're one of theirs had this fascinating list of ingredients you ready? So moody, brand sparkling non alcoholic wine contains water. White gooseberry juice, Quince malt sugar, Jasmine sourdough starter, salt, Woodruff, Geranium and
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:42
yeast. Nice. That's fascinating. Yeah, I feel like
Molly 8:47
once you put all those things together, it's bound to taste really interesting. Yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 8:52
Especially if you get it get a hint of Woodruff. Yeah, what is WOODRUFF Do I think it was like the president during World War One?
Molly 8:59
I thought that maybe they were referring to my fourth grade teacher Mrs. Woodruff Yeah,
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:03
they put like if you think it's hard to get a ship in a bottle,
Molly 9:07
I played in Mrs. Winter if in a bottle. Okay, well, I feel bad pouring the rest of this out. But I feel like I don't know. Maybe I'll kick it back. Okay, would you say again? What was in that one?
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:19
That was yuzu whole oranges versus you cinnamon Murray River Salt. Okay, and the next one we're going to try is a red and it's sparkling. It's the stewed cherry and coffee. Nan number seven sour cherries, cold brew coffee garam masala, all spice nutmeg, pink peppercorn Murray River Salt and very few. Okay,
Molly 9:40
this sounds fascinating. So I always feel weird about beverages that are that you would probably wind up consuming in the evening that have coffee in them. Sure. Like Espresso Martini.
Matthew Amster-Burton 9:54
I well. I mean, a lot of places. Just going out to the coffee after dinner like like Italy or France. I'm bet this doesn't have much coffee smell it, but I don't know. I take it back. Whoa,
Molly 10:10
wow, that has a lot of said have clove. All
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:14
Spice, all spice and nutmeg so similar.
Molly 10:17
You know, the first sip of this felt like a lot. Yeah. Now that I've had a second sip. It's kind of working for me. It's a lot of all spice in the aftertaste. Yep.
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:29
I'm not totally sure if I feel like the coffee is balanced with everything else, just because coffee is such a strong aroma. But I do like it.
Molly 10:39
What's really remarkable to me about these is the way that the flavor does linger in your mouth, which is not always the case or was not necessarily the case with the D alcohol iced wines we tasted. And it's not even always the case with wine. I mean, often wines are gone the minute you swallow them if it's not a great wine. Yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 10:57
I mean, the wine itself is gone. You swallow? Yeah, this is this is fascinating, because like, I think the salt is a really important ingredient. And like I'm glad they're highlighting it. Because I think without the salt, both of these would be kind of flat. Yeah, like the light the light. You know, Frizzante carbonation on this one.
Molly 11:17
I'm really curious about how these hold up in the fridge, let's say because I could see myself really enjoying a glass of one of these in the evening. But I wonder how well it holds up like now how wine you know, only holds up for so long. Even in the fridge? That's
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:35
a really good question. Because like, yeah, like I feel like like wine. Usually, you know, you get like two or three days out of it. Maybe
Molly 11:42
I feel like sometimes you can get more with a red wine. Yeah, definitely not a white.
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:46
But these are juice based and like juice lasts longer than that in the fridge.
Molly 11:52
That's a good so maybe one that's Frizzante maybe we'll go a little flat. Right?
Matthew Amster-Burton 11:57
Although I do have I do have a good
Molly 11:59
stopper. Okay.
So what do you think about this? Like is value I know we that's such a boring thing for us to talk about. But I still am kind of hung up on the fact that this is a $30 product. So
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:20
let's talk about values. Are there I'm also curious, like what the other flavors of these of the non is because now now I like I feel like they're good flavor blenders.
Molly 12:31
I'm gonna pull it up really quick.
Matthew Amster-Burton 12:33
So that's a good question. I'm a cheapskate and I don't like to pay $30 for any. So I might be the wrong person to ask and yet, like, I don't know, does this look Okay, so here here's I'm gonna I'm gonna keep keep vamping here while you while you look up the other flavors because because you know, as you know, like Lori and I have gotten in the habit, the last couple of years of buying a nice bottle of champagne at the local wine store for New Years that cost like 30 or $35. And which I which I know is cheap for a bottle of champagne. But we have a nice local local wine store that sells great inexpensive wines. That feels like a great value. Like it's hard to compete with the idea of champagne as a special thing. Yeah. And so if I think about it that way, I'm like, No, this isn't worth $30 It's all a matter of context, right? What's what's the context where it feels like this would be the thing you would get
Molly 13:30
if I were buying one of these for New Years, if I were abstaining from alcohol or inviting over some friends drink? Yeah, I would feel like it was perfectly reasonable to spend 30 bucks,
Matthew Amster-Burton 13:42
I think that that's exactly it. Like I don't think I would get it just for like me and me and wotso not because it's not good, it is good. But because like we might for every day, it's too much for every day. And it's that like even for a special occasion, we want something that like brings back like a memory of of consuming that thing. And like you know, now we're old and we've Tavor tasting this thing for the first time so it's gonna be hard for it to form a tradition. You know, that's an
Molly 14:09
interesting point. Well, so one of the flavors I wanted to taste was the non one, which they call salted raspberry and, and chamomile. Which sounds like a little sweet to me.
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:21
That chamomile tea used to drink in the morning. It's described as
Molly 14:25
whole raspberries chamomile, Murray River Salt, organic cane sugar, Vera, Zulu and water.
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:31
Yeah, I think the use of very few is really smart. This one
Molly 14:34
is so it's a Rosae and it gets really good reviews. Okay, check this out. Number two is caramelized pear and kombu. This one has pears, very few black tea kombu olive brine, vanilla, agave, clove, cardamom, ginger root star anise and peppercorn.
Matthew Amster-Burton 14:56
Okay, the olive brine probably goes a step too far for me. Okay. like that sort of thing, probably like that sort of thing. And
Molly 15:03
that one kind of has like a almost orange wine color. Yeah, no, these are really,
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:08
really good. I don't know. Yeah. Okay, maybe, maybe. Maybe non wants to sponsor us.
Molly 15:14
Yeah, this stuff's pretty good. Okay, all right. Yeah. Wow. Well, I you know, I didn't mean to have this be a whole non episode, but I feel like this stuff is so good. I would like this company to hang around. So everybody go buy some of this stuff. Oh, the next, the next special occasion when you want to drink something festive but not have alcohol. All
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:32
right. Yeah, I'd like to revisit this topic sometime in the future and try some other ones because that's the occasion it's when when the show is buying it. That's right for us to talk about on the show. Yes, that's I can't think of a more festive occasion or with a better friend.
Molly 15:48
I would love to hear if any of our listeners have tried the proxies brand ones, or the Marie or Marie or moody brand.
Matthew Amster-Burton 15:58
I mean, this one is made with moody River Salt. Nice one, Matthew. Thanks. Yeah, gotta get in touch contacted spilled milk. podcast.com. Yeah, Matthew, do we have any segments today? We have some spilled mail
know we're gonna we're gonna sing our admin cover song again. No, no, no, no, he's gonna paste it in. I'm just gonna paste it in. Yep. Beautiful song we wrote last time, it's almost December 1. So pull up in a hearse.
Molly 16:33
Don't forget your calendar with 24 little holes or 25. I can't remember. It depends
Matthew Amster-Burton 16:41
on the calendar, how many holes some have 24 And some have more. So bend to the hole. This is another listener email about advent calendars. And from Mr. Vicki. Last time, when I wrote to you I was living in Germany with my husband who was American. He had the same experiences as you guys when he was a kid with bad chocolate advent calendars. I'm Taiwanese, so I of course, I did not have many experiences. However, the advent calendar was very popular in Germany. Every year we would splurge on a really fancy alcoholic chocolate advent calendar. We would even get a second one when it was closer or after Christmas since it became really cheap. That is smart. There's nothing I love down candy. It's my favorite thing. We moved back to Taiwan. Now advent calendar is not a thing here. I found a DIY kit and made it myself this year for my husband. I filled it with boozy chocolates. However, the calendar is meant for a child and my husband has giant fat fingers. He basically destroyed the calendar while trying to get the chocolates out. Best regards, Vicki. Vicki, I love you. This is one of the best events.
Molly 17:42
I listen. I'm also really happy for you with your husband with giant fat fingers. I mean, I imagine that's great in other contexts. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Vicki, that is fantastic. Also, I
Matthew Amster-Burton 17:54
want to say me like opening jars.
Molly 17:56
What a good spouse you are to make boozy chocolates using a DIY kit for your spouse.
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:03
I'm wondering if the boozy chocolates weren't part of the kit, but the like, Oh, I
Molly 18:09
get it. Okay, so maybe she bought the boozy chocolates that
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:13
yes, she made the boozy chocolates that's that's above that's going
Molly 18:17
to no I think that you're right. I think you're reading it correctly. Yeah, by
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:21
the way I listener Vicki did send a photo of the destroyed advent calendar, which I'll show you Molly. finish recording.
Molly 18:27
Okay. Um,
Matthew Amster-Burton 18:29
do you have a now but wow, I do.
Molly 18:39
This one is something that I'm throwing it back to a pretty old cookbook. So Matthew, do you remember the cookbook Jerusalem, of course. So it's by Yotam, Ottolenghi and Sami Tamimi. In it, there's this recipe that they call herb pie. It's basically like a spanakopita. You can use chard or spinach, and then a whole bunch of fresh herbs. So recently, this past weekend, actually, I was over at a friend's house and she was like, Do you want some herb pie? We had a whole bunch of leftover fresh herbs from, you know, the previous week or something and she threw them into this recipe because it would use them all up. It was so delicious. It sounds great. I mean, it's basically a spanakopita it just has more fresh herbs. Anyway, it's got parsley, mint, dill, chard, you know, and all the other usual suspects Fetta It was a fantastic or pi. And it made me think again about the book Jerusalem, which I haven't thought about in so long, and which my God seems like a more poignant project than ever given that the two the two authors were both British but of Israeli and Palestinian origin. Sure, if you have not yet made the herb pie from Jerusalem, you should make it
Matthew Amster-Burton 19:54
that sounds great. I have an important update on the non seven which is the Yeah sour cherry and cold brew coffee one Yeah, I just realized as I was drinking some more of it and and enjoying its its rich bouquet that there is a significant PSL aspect to this because of the of the combination of coffee and all sizes. Yes. Oh, so so I'm like, I'm like drinking this. I'm like smelling smell You're right. Like if I raised my eyes, it's 100% Pumpkin Spice Latte. Like not not in a bad. I mean, obviously we love the pumpkin spice latte. That's so interesting, isn't it?
Molly 20:32
That is really interesting. I'm getting it more on the aroma of it. Absolutely. Then then the flavor, although the more I drink of it, the more I am aware of the salt that's in it.
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:41
I like there's not a criticism like, oh, no, no, I think it's good. But like, it's so interesting because I'm like, smelling like I have smelled this before. Where Wow,
Molly 20:50
you are totally right. I mean,
Matthew Amster-Burton 20:51
I fascinating.
Molly 20:53
I feel like the the warm spices in this are like going right up to the edge. For me. They're like almost too much.
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:01
Like it's like an herb pie for your nose. It's like spice pie. Spice pie for my nose. That's right. All right, our producers Abby, sir. Catella Molly's got a got a delightful newsletter called I've got a feeling and yeah, I love your latest installment so much. Thank
Molly 21:15
you. Thank you. It's
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:16
it Molly weisenberg.substack.com. I was going to just let it go by without saying how to get it. But go to that. Go to that website and sign up. Oh, thanks.
Molly 21:23
And Matthews in a band. It's called early to the airport. Yep.
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:27
And I am really getting close to finishing my parts on the new EP. So there's gonna be sitting on it for a while I know. And there was there was some procrastinating in there for sure.
Molly 21:37
Do you think by the time this episode comes out, it'll be out.
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:41
That would be great. I think that's a little optimistic. But yeah, by by summer, I'm gonna say for sure. Awesome.
Molly 21:47
You can find early to the airport. Everywhere you find music on Spotify. They've got a band camp situation. We do
Matthew Amster-Burton 21:55
have a band camp situation. It's really to the airport dot band. camp.com Please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts, check in with other listeners and everything spilled. milk.reddit.com talk about what what are you proxying?
Molly 22:07
Yeah.
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:07
Who's your proxy is your proxy? What have you it's assembled inside a bottle. Yeah, let us know. And until next time, thank you for listening to spilled milk. The show that just smells like Christmas all year round.
Molly 22:20
Molly wise and Varun. I'm
Matthew Amster-Burton 22:22
Matthew Amster-Burton
Wow, I was gonna say something about something I don't know.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai